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Talk:Sejuani/@comment-33536623-20140331092028/@comment-9048637-20140417235445
"With "another late game tank" I mean a champ (who is intended to be a jungler) who first has to go through the ordeal of getting 2 items (Spirit of Golem and Sunfire) to be at least somewhat tanky to actually survive the ganks you're planning." So... how did a rework that actually gave Sejuani a tankiness steroid where she previously had none make this more the case than before? I realize said steroid isn't very strong, but it's still better than nothing. "Also the jungletank item has been nerfed into being barely useful for tanks." I agree with this. SotAG has been sadly overnerfed. But it has nothing to do with Sejuani's rework, particularly when it happened some good time after the rework. "The clear speed is slow....really slow..." And her clear speed before was so amazing? Also, I advise you take a read of the post I made in the next comment thread down, it includes a number of tips I've discovered for helping make that clear speed a little less painful. "Her ganking abilities got nerfed (and don't tell me " biut the knock-up", yes that's a good ability, but look at it %hp damage. Is that what a cc tnak needs? Nope, she just needs to be able to clear decently as well as sustain in the jungle)" I am going to tell you "but knock-up", actually. Let's look at this in detail. First of all, I'm going to assume that old Permafrost and new Permafrost are roughly equal (iirc, old lasted slightly longer, particularly since the nerfs to the new one, but new one is a stronger slow, particularly at early levels). So let's just compare a Q that knocks up to a 10% permaslow. We'll estimate that the knock-up lasts for about 0.5s; seem reasonable enough? So for 0.5s, your enemy is not moving at all - in other words, in terms of their escaping ability, that's like a 100% slow (leaving aside the fact that a knock-up is far more versatile than a slow). To achieve the same reduction of movement with a permaslow, you need to be permaslowing them for a total of 5s. That's... quite a long time, for an early gank. But it's possible, right? Ah, but it gets better! That's 5s where they are not affected by Permafrost, since the old permaslow obviously added nothing while that was the case. So, even with the new Permafrost at rank 1... that's a 6.5s gank (from the moment where you make contact with the enemy, not from when you come onto the lane, at that) for Sejuani's old permaslow just to break even with the Arctic Assault knock-up. Now, sure, some ganks last that long... but early ganks? For the most part? Not in my experience. From this, I contend that new Sejuani's early ganks are no weaker than old Sejuani's, if not stronger. "TO sum up that random jabbering above: the idea for new sejuani was good...but then it was overpowered so it got nerfed. ANd now we got a TANK who's really REALLY dependent on getting items, which she can't if : a) she gets counterjungled (which is easy) b) she runs out of mana (which she does easily if one's trysing to improve jusngle clear time as well as manage some decent ganks) c) she has to b after 6 camps (which is a little overexaggerated, but at least it feels like that)" A and B... again, as opposed to before her rework? Sejuani has always been easy to counter-jungle, and she has always been mana hungry. I really don't see how the rework is meant to have changed this. Of course, the shifting meta might have, somewhat, but that has nothing to do with the rework! And as for C, I refer you once again to my post in the next thread down. I encourage you to try my setup described there and see if Sejuani's clears still feel quite so terrible. I'm not saying they'll be anything great, but they shouldn't feel awful, at least. And again, this is not a problem with the rework, this is a problem with the season 4 jungle. Sejuani's clearing is, I feel, if anything stronger since the rework since you clear the large camps a lot better now that you don't have to apply Frost to multiple targets to maximise your AoE damage. Also, AA-rests ftw. "op range ultimate" Okay, I want to address this quickly. This one was a straight nerf, I'll grant you. It technically reduced Sejuani's overall potential. But the change was made in order to raise her skill requirement. Old Sejuani could just chuck her ultimate in the vague general direction of the enemy and still get results. New Sejuani has to actually aim it a bit. How is this a bad thing? At any rate, it's not as if the new ultimate is exactly short-ranged... In conclusion: I think that a lot of your problems with Sejuani as it stands are less problems with the rework that you're complaining about and more problems with the current state of the meta and the recent jungle changes. On these, I am happy to find common ground with you. Tanky utility junglers like Sejuani have gotten a bit of a short shrift from the season 4 jungle, and the meta currently overwhelmingly favours exactly the sort of early game monsters that make their lives living hell. What I still don't understand is how you have somehow placed blame for these problems on Sejuani's rework. It has nothing to do with them, nor did it even coincide with the changes that brought them about. Still, if you want a tank focused on early game with decent late game scaling, I guess you may well be better off playing Naut. They do do similar things, I'll concede; the main differences are that Naut has a slightly better early, while Sej has a slightly better late. And indeed, maybe for that reason, Nautilus fits better into the current meta than Sejuani. But personally, I'm gonna stay playing the badass lady of war on a boar. She's not weak, not by any means.